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Talk:Tavern (Oblivion)
There has been a great deal of discussion about the definition of tavern, and I think we worked it all out, but I noticed that some of the places on this page are not marked by the wine glass (e.g., Moslin's Inn, Luther Broad's Boarding House). Perhaps the intro paragraph should be reworded to indicate this and the fact that some of these places do not have beds, others do not have food, etc. Avfanatic - I know this is your area o' expertise. andy 18:53, 26 April 2007 (CDT) Inn vs. Tavern I noticed that we refer to locations of rest as "Inns" when in fact the manual refers to them as "Taverns." I know we redirect Tavern to Inn, and I know it's just semantics, but I think there is a small difference of an actual map marker tavern vs. an inn within a city, e.g. The Count's Arms in Anvil. If we keep the two together, I think we should at least separate the article into what counts as an actual 'map marker tavern' vs and inner-city inn/tavern/place of rest.--[[User:TheSpectator|'theSpectator']] talk 00:42, 7 April 2007 (CDT) : How sad that I never noticed that. I think that we should abolish :Category:Inns and transfer them all to :Category:Taverns. There's nothing game-wise distinguishing inner city inns differently on the map and outside the marker is "Tavern/Stable". So the inner city inns, hotels, hostels, etc. should follow suit and be Taverns. That being said if there's some distinciton beyond listing them inside their home city what would we use? : However it makes me wonder if we should combine all inns, taverns and stables into :Category: Tavern/Stable with a matching Tavern/Stable listing article (and approptiate redirects), to be the most proper. As you say its semantics, but to me, technically correct is the best kind of correct. --Avfanatic 01:06, 7 April 2007 (CDT) ::Well, I'm of the thinking that we should separate Inns and Taverns based on the services offered, as not all Taverns offer beds, and there may be Inns that do not offer a wide selection of food and drink. I don't tend to think that combining taverns and stables would be a good idea, as both locations are there for different purposes, you aren't going to sit down to eat at a stable (unless your an orc ;-) ), and likewise your not going to buy a horse from a Tavern or Inn. As far as the categories are concerned, however, it might not be a bad idea to combine the three, but I think Inns and Taverns should both have separate articles, with locations that perform both services listed on both articles. \*\ Hellhound43 01:34, 7 April 2007 (CDT) ::: Tavern = drink & Inn = bed? Where does just food go? And what about neither (i.e. in name only) --Avfanatic 01:47, 7 April 2007 (CDT) ::::Well I was thinking Tavern includes food lol. As far as neither goes... wilderness? hehe I have no idea but I doubt there are any Inns or Taverns that don't offer either or both services. \*\ Hellhound43 05:40, 7 April 2007 (CDT) ::::: The Flowing Bowl has only food (as do others I think - The Feed Bag?) and The Fo'c's'le has neither (maybe others?). --Avfanatic 10:58, 7 April 2007 (CDT) :::::: I think before we decide specifically on tavern vs. inn vs. bed/food/etc we should discuss which places actually are food only, bed only, drink only, food-drink, food-bed, etc. Then we can see how many of each there are. --[[User:TheSpectator|'theSpectator']] talk 13:04, 7 April 2007 (CDT) Let me see about finishing the inns, taverns, whatever.. and I'll mark them all with temp categories of Beds, Drink, Food, Food and Drink, etc. and we'll see what's what and who we want to group with who. I do think putting them all under the map marker named category of Tavern/Stable when all done is a good idea because we then have a full list by the category and articles with listings by type. Also, are there any settlement taverns not yet listed? --Avfanatic 13:21, 7 April 2007 (CDT) 9 :Category: Bed and Food 4 :Category: Drink and Food - including The Wastrel's Purse in Shvering Isles. 1 :Category: Bed - only after quest though. 1 :Category: Food 18 :Category: Bed, Drink and Food - including The Choosy Beggar in Shvering Isles. Maybe +1 for Sickly Bernice's Taphouse. 1 Nothing - The Fo'c's'le I didn't get the Imperial Bridge Inn or any not listed at Inn and of course The Fo'c's'le has nothing. -- Avfanatic 14:36, 7 April 2007 (CDT) EDIT: Maybe we should organize them by signage (i.e. Moon and Stars = Inn, others = tavern, minus the stables of course). --Avfanatic 14:03, 9 April 2007 (CDT) :I added Bliss' The Choosy Beggar in the "Bed, Drink, and Food" category. It has one type of food (Smoked Baliwog Leg) some drinks, and a bed for 20/night. Just a heads-up. I think it's one of only two Inns in the Shivering Isles (the other being in Passwall - can't remember the name). andy 16:55, 9 April 2007 (CDT) :: Actually I did notice that, thank you for helping. :) Sickly Bernice's Taphouse is in Crucible but I haven't checked her yet (IIRC B,D, and F). Speaking of SI, The Wastrel's Purse gives a great example of why the line is so fine between inn, tavern, etc. The sign is a moon and stars (IMO denoting beds) but there are no beds for rent and Dredhwen sells general goods. You can sleep upstairs but many places allow that, even places that charge for a bed may have a bed that is usable by the PC. --Avfanatic 17:55, 9 April 2007 (CDT) ::: I'm wondering how much we need to seperate out categories, i.e., food and drink PLUS bed from JUST food and bed, no drink. It seems like what people are generally interested in is the bed; food and drink are secondary. Plus, the food and drink is pretty standard stuff - not exotic. I guess there are some Tamika's 399 that might be valuable, but that's pretty rare stuff anyway, and only necessary for the Nirnroot quest (I think). ::: One possible solution is different names for different places. For example, a "Tavern" offers drink and a bed, but an "Inn" offers food, drink, and a bed. This feels arbitray and esoteric, though. I don't think people would take the time to figure out what "Inn" versus "Tavern" means. It seems to me, therefore, that there should be one broad category (probably "Tavern," as that's what's in the manual) for every place with a bed, regardless of what else they sell. If a place sells food and/or drink but not beds, than it just be a general store or a store. If you can sleep upstairs without paying from a non-tavern store then that is an "incidental bed" and goes in with the rest of the incidental properties like Shetcombe Farm. There are lots of free places to sleep, including mats in the wilderness, camps, farms, bandit bedrolls in caves, Gottlesfont Priory, etc., so a free bed upstairs from a store that sells food doesn't seem special. Just my two cents. andy 19:07, 9 April 2007 (CDT) Those are good points and make me further think we should consolidate them all under Tavern/Stable and then put a listing in each settlement or city's article about their inns and taverns. Interestingly, the definitions for inn and tavern reference each other but not as synonyms. I would call these all Inns (and have) but the game marks them Tavern/Stables and so redirecting Inn to a Tavern article is just as good as not. --Avfanatic 19:28, 9 April 2007 (CDT) In-game screen just called places you can find beds to rest "Taverns". --Avfanatic 16:32, 10 April 2007 (CDT) :Av - you looked up the definitions? Nice. I personally don't like "Tavern," as my association with Taverns do not include sleeping or a bed. It seems like "Inn" has the better connotation of a bed for rent. But if it says "Tavern" in the manual and on the in-game screen, then I guess I will reluctantly vote for "Tavern," but I think that it should include places to get drink and/or food but no beds, e.g. The Feed Bag. andy 20:08, 10 April 2007 (CDT) ::If we separate the two, I think we should have the minimum amount of categories/sections necessary to demonstrate the small differences, i.e. we don't need four or five categories for Tavern/Inn; it'd be too much and too confusing. Possibly two would work, as explained above. Personally, it doesn't matter what it's called, though I tend to lean toward "Tavern" just because that's how the game calls it. Although I do agree that "Inn" sounds more appropriate for those that have beds. --[[User:TheSpectator|'theSpectator']] talk 22:27, 10 April 2007 (CDT) :It's my understanding that, historically speaking, an inn is an establishment where one can buy a bed for a night, but not neccessarily food (though almost all inns provide some form of food and drink) and possibly a social environment for the locals, while a tavern is a place that provides food, drink, and a social environment for the locals that may or may not also provide a small number of beds for travellers. ... to shorten it, Inns = Beds, maybe food. Taverns = Foods, maybe beds. That being said, if I had to vote one way, I'd vote that if the place provides a bed, it's an inn. If it only provides food and drink, it's a tavern. Secondtalon 10:44, 11 April 2007 (CDT) :I think inns and taverns would be fine under one article. But, if we want to split it into Inns and Taverns, which are which specifically? :Saying that the those with beds is an Inn leaves 5 total Taverns including one with Inn in the title and one in the Shivering Isles. I count The Fo'c's'le as an Inn because it has beds (just not for you) and it has a "Moon and stars" sign which to me screams Inn. Do these five places need their own Tavern article, a basic definition and listing like the current Inn article? Wouldn't it be just as appropriate moving inn to Tavern (to match the game) and then meld the :Category:Inns, :Category:Taverns, and :Category:Stables under just :Category:Tavern/Stable (again to match the game)? Remember that Taverns and Stables would still have their own listing articles, they would just be listed under the same category - a category the game uses to define them? --Avfanatic 20:14, 11 April 2007 (CDT) ::I wouldn't mind a merge of the three categories into Category:Taverns/Stables. We could then place a note up top stating: :::"The following lists the game's inns, taverns, and stables. Some of the establishments are not actual map-travel inn/taverns, but are inns/taverns within a city or elsewhere and provide services. Stables are separate locations that sell and store horses, and are simply listed here because they use the same map travel icon." ::Something like that. --[[User:TheSpectator|'theSpectator']] talk 22:35, 11 April 2007 (CDT) :::I like the idea of a note, because no matter what category we use it seems like we're gonna have to qualify it. So my vote (is this a democracy?) is for the category "Tavern/Stable" with Spec's qualification. It seems like Bethseda tacked Stables onto Tavern because it didn't have anywhere else to go and they didn't want too great a variety of icons. Service-wise, they don't have anything in common. That doesn't have much to do with anything, but it's a bit annoying. andy 18:33, 12 April 2007 (CDT)